black coffee in NZ caffes

[jules]

Alot of hard work but how the hell do we get Kiwis to drink black coffee, and do away with all the health issues directly related to dairy consomption, or am I a radical for even trying to suggest that this could take off and bring a whole new element to the NZ Cafe/coffee house sub industry. After living in Vancouver canada for the last 4 years I can not drink anything larger than a macciato/flat white ok a 6 to 8 oz milk based drink.
Except for within the coffee industry kiwi coffee consumers seem to snob black coffee when in truth a single origin specialty coffee is a hell of alot more enjoyable.

There that should bring out some opinions.
kiwi in cunuck land

[Eddie]

Hey Jules!

Good on you for raising the subject! I've been roasting single origins for over four years now and trying to educate customers to the benefits of a short/long black (my shot of choice -as it is for my wife). We avoid dairy wherever possible (for health reasons - and we're not calves either!) and can drink more black than white any day! I wonder if more people drink white coffee 'cause it's easier to hide bad roast/extraction technique with milk? (that should get a few people going).

What are other's experiences?

[Lauren Nicholls]

Hey,
I think for new zealand its just a culture thing with drinking coffee with soo much milk in it, like you generally wouldn't walk into a cafe and see short/long black at the top of a coffee menu, you see flat white or cappa or latte, not to mention that in smaller cities/town you wouldn't even find machiato on the coffee menu. I drink a variety of coffee such as plunger coffee, short/long black, short/long machiato, double shot picolos, or 5-6oz flat whites. The only time that i drink coffee with more milk in it than that is if im hungry. Im not worried about the effects of dairy... its just how i enjoy coffee at this point in time, in saying that i couldn't ruin a perfect plunger coffee with milk.But as Eddie brought up im sure the fact that the general new zealand public drink their coffee with sooooo much milk is due to poor barista training and in some cases bad beans or roast.

[jules]

well its funny,

When I first came to canada I was all black coffee what are you like this is a caffe not my house.
I see supreem coffee in wellys have a clover so it is happening.

I have some ideas for when I come home to open up shop so am going to keep them close to me chest untill then. I do find it strange as kiwis like to think they know there wines so should we also not know our specialty coffee, Im not saying hey lets bring Tim Hortons to NZ but let me ask do starbucks serve black coffee down under?? I wouldnt know as I refuse to enter 1.

I miss NZ It really is the best place on earth except for the lake of football passaion. P.S Well done to the kiwi football team in SA

Hey alun no comments for your newest group member dicussion.

[Ryan]

Yeah i know what you mean, i lived in Vancouver/Whistler for a 3 years too. Although im not sure i agree entirely with your argument, i can see where your coming from. I liked being able to walk into Starbucks/Esquires or even a 7-Eleven and being able to choose the roast, flavour etc of my coffee and only paying a pittance for a big cup. I think the biggest issue with introducing these sorta things in NZ is the culture of todays cafe's and customers. Gone are the days of the 'bottomless cup' and the big carafe of drip coffee. In Canada/USA, the culture is much more geared towards this form of coffee, and they are used not paying much for their coffee. Although the best espresso ive ever had was in one of the (many) Starbucks in Whistler! By the way hows the weather in BC?

[Alun Evans]

I think, and this might be a bit harsh, that the early specialty coffee innovators in NZ were responsible somewhat for both the flatwhite culture and the focus on the espresso machine being the be all of coffee. Both ideals are detrimental in the future success of coffee I reckon. The machine drive has seen pretty much every small cafe and even a number of dairys introducing a machine for customers. OK- I can see the business logic in this, once someone has committed to a machine they also theoretically are commiting to your coffee for a set period. This has created a burgeoning focus on espresso based drinks and blends, and taken the focus off the development of the single origin pallete. I am sure Hemenui would be the first to tell us of how success Monmouth in London has been, for around 30 years, focusing not on espresso, but cup by cup single origins.

The one thing that does shock me when I am back in NZ is the passion for the HUGE 600ml milk drinks. My opinion is quality coffee was not created to be hidden away in eoug milk to feed the average Indonesian family for 4 days! Anyway, lively discussion

[Ryan]

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Ryan]

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[jules]

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

I have heard they go for $10k a pop- and that is US$ not Kiwi! I know James Leighton loves the Clover, but I seriously think pricing as much as anything may slow down sales downunder

jules said:

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[jules]

well you cant buy a new clover anymore cause the guy sold the company to f***Bucks so now the coffee world can not buy them.

Like I said I have a plan But im not telling any1 till im open in NZ, I know keepinf ideas to your self in coffee is wrong but this is not a original idea i have its already out there but not common down under you will all find out one day ha

Alun Evans said:

I have heard they go for $10k a pop- and that is US$ not Kiwi! I know James Leighton loves the Clover, but I seriously think pricing as much as anything may slow down sales downunder

jules said:

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)