black coffee in NZ caffes

[jules]

Alot of hard work but how the hell do we get Kiwis to drink black coffee, and do away with all the health issues directly related to dairy consomption, or am I a radical for even trying to suggest that this could take off and bring a whole new element to the NZ Cafe/coffee house sub industry. After living in Vancouver canada for the last 4 years I can not drink anything larger than a macciato/flat white ok a 6 to 8 oz milk based drink.
Except for within the coffee industry kiwi coffee consumers seem to snob black coffee when in truth a single origin specialty coffee is a hell of alot more enjoyable.

There that should bring out some opinions.
kiwi in cunuck land

[Ryan]

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[jules]

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

I have heard they go for $10k a pop- and that is US$ not Kiwi! I know James Leighton loves the Clover, but I seriously think pricing as much as anything may slow down sales downunder

jules said:

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[jules]

well you cant buy a new clover anymore cause the guy sold the company to f***Bucks so now the coffee world can not buy them.

Like I said I have a plan But im not telling any1 till im open in NZ, I know keepinf ideas to your self in coffee is wrong but this is not a original idea i have its already out there but not common down under you will all find out one day ha

Alun Evans said:

I have heard they go for $10k a pop- and that is US$ not Kiwi! I know James Leighton loves the Clover, but I seriously think pricing as much as anything may slow down sales downunder

jules said:

but why would supreem buy a clove Is it only at the roaster????

Alun Evans said:

haha...dont go there!!! I have a story to tell but maybe it can wait. Actually yes, it can wait. It involves a little diary in Mangere and an espresso machine that really had no place being there at all.

Ryan said:

Oh i totally agree, i was more referring to the comment on the explosion of espresso machines in smaller cafe's etc

Alun Evans said:

I dont think there is necessarily anything really wrong with espresso blending in NZ, I just feel that the innovation has somewhat gone out of the balloon. I mean the Guat-Colombian-Ethiopean blend in some form or other (%'s differ) makes up probably 80% of the market. I would love to see more roasters experimenting with a wider range of origins. Its not that Indonesian, East African, Caribbean, South Americans do not work well in blends- it is just that the norm has, well.... become the norm! I think continued innovation, even when it means re-educating the pallate as Eddie mentioned aove, is key to developing a longterm, growing specialty coffee consumr market

Ryan said:

and its not like NZ is particularly good for espresso anyway ;)

[Alun Evans]

Looking forward to it! Keeping ideas to yourself is permitted- as long as it results in an advance for us all in the longterm!

[jules]

ok then, My big thing about black coffee which you will appreciate Alun Is getting the best available bean roasting it to how the bean demands for the best flavor and paying a premium in order to support the community in which the bean comes from. Having worked with the Piccilo family and Frankie jamarlie (La Marzocco and ex Clover Distributor here in vancouver and meeting the likes of Reg barber and seeing all the good that they do in order to help the growing community Produce a better product and increase their standard of living gives me peace of mind and a reason to reduce waste every day. which is also why I think there can be a opportunity to create such a market in NZ as I believe we understand the hardship or our immediate neighboring nations such as PNG and Indonesia.

In my current Job with a Local Vancouver Franchise of 15 stores as training manager and food and beverage manager, I am In the closing stages of implementing the One Harvest project which Dillano coffee roasters have worked hard on, Check it out @ oneharvestproject.com or find the link @ dillanocoffeeroasters.com.

Ok 30c calls for time buy the pool

Alun Evans said:

Looking forward to it! Keeping ideas to yourself is permitted- as long as it results in an advance for us all in the longterm!

[Ryan]

all seems a little similar to the already-big 'fair trade certified' products in NZ? i notice at Wild Bean their raw sugar is also fair trade

[Alun Evans]

Gidday Ryan. The problem with Fairtrade is that while it is a stopgap remedy- it really does not address the poverty and problems of the bulk of the worlds coffee growing community. In Indonesia there were, at my last count, only 4 "certified" fairtrade coops here- this is in a country that is the worlds 4th largest producr of coffee. In Honduras, there are 70. The cost and the nature of developing a coop (or even a Finca or Estate Group) to meet the compliance and payfor certification means that it is almost impossible for most farmers or smallholdrs to get certified.

Wht Jules is talking about is "relationship" coffee - essentially where the roaster builds a direct relationship to a farming cumminty- helps to work on the quality of that communities coffee so it meets specialty coffee standards, then cmmits to payng fairtrade prices or BETTER to that community. We do it here in Indonesia, it works very well for ur gowers and also for us- as we get unique, quality coffee. The difficulties are always in building the relationship, then managing these longterm. It is, I guess, why I have little choie but to continue being here and ot there (NZ!)

I would like to think that in the future the ground work FT has done will lead to the whole movement, wi be replaced by direct, euitable and fairly traded. I lso suspect Jules has it right in projectng a small, yet coffee focused market like New Zealand will/would be a great place to launch his idea in.

Ryan said:

all seems a little similar to the already-big 'fair trade certified' products in NZ? i notice at Wild Bean their raw sugar is also fair trade

[jules]

fair trade created the snow ball. Dillanos goes as far as bank rolling a harvest so the co op or indivdual dose not need to borrow money at 3rd world intrest rates like 20% so it a big deal really.

49th paid for a bus for school kids in colombia, so those sort of things in my words are just cool.

Alun Evans said:

Gidday Ryan. The problem with Fairtrade is that while it is a stopgap remedy- it really does not address the poverty and problems of the bulk of the worlds coffee growing community. In Indonesia there were, at my last count, only 4 "certified" fairtrade coops here- this is in a country that is the worlds 4th largest producr of coffee. In Honduras, there are 70. The cost and the nature of developing a coop (or even a Finca or Estate Group) to meet the compliance and payfor certification means that it is almost impossible for most farmers or smallholdrs to get certified.

Wht Jules is talking about is "relationship" coffee - essentially where the roaster builds a direct relationship to a farming cumminty- helps to work on the quality of that communities coffee so it meets specialty coffee standards, then cmmits to payng fairtrade prices or BETTER to that community. We do it here in Indonesia, it works very well for ur gowers and also for us- as we get unique, quality coffee. The difficulties are always in building the relationship, then managing these longterm. It is, I guess, why I have little choie but to continue being here and ot there (NZ!)

I would like to think that in the future the ground work FT has done will lead to the whole movement, wi be replaced by direct, euitable and fairly traded. I lso suspect Jules has it right in projectng a small, yet coffee focused market like New Zealand will/would be a great place to launch his idea in.

Ryan said:

all seems a little similar to the already-big 'fair trade certified' products in NZ? i notice at Wild Bean their raw sugar is also fair trade

[Alun Evans]

Cool, and necessary for the future of specialty coffee. You just imagine living in a world where the choice of Sumatran Mandehling is from one or two "producers". Wait- we are there now you say? No- we are at the crossroads. Mandehling, for example, is a general growing area. There are probably 2,500 growing communities in this area all producing distinctly different coffees. Direct trade means these growing communities can sell directly to the Dillanos, the Merdekas of this world. The future of coffee is not "Aid" perse- more the savvy roasters sense that by paying way above "fairtrade" pricing communities can empower themselves- get the clean water, schooling, roading, electricity, phone systems etc- the coffee drinker in Toronto, Auckland, Wellington,,,even Invercargill can get something really special. Its a win-win for sure!

jules said:

fair trade created the snow ball. Dillanos goes as far as bank rolling a harvest so the co op or indivdual dose not need to borrow money at 3rd world intrest rates like 20% so it a big deal really.

49th paid for a bus for school kids in colombia, so those sort of things in my words are just cool.

Alun Evans said:

Gidday Ryan. The problem with Fairtrade is that while it is a stopgap remedy- it really does not address the poverty and problems of the bulk of the worlds coffee growing community. In Indonesia there were, at my last count, only 4 "certified" fairtrade coops here- this is in a country that is the worlds 4th largest producr of coffee. In Honduras, there are 70. The cost and the nature of developing a coop (or even a Finca or Estate Group) to meet the compliance and payfor certification means that it is almost impossible for most farmers or smallholdrs to get certified.

Wht Jules is talking about is "relationship" coffee - essentially where the roaster builds a direct relationship to a farming cumminty- helps to work on the quality of that communities coffee so it meets specialty coffee standards, then cmmits to payng fairtrade prices or BETTER to that community. We do it here in Indonesia, it works very well for ur gowers and also for us- as we get unique, quality coffee. The difficulties are always in building the relationship, then managing these longterm. It is, I guess, why I have little choie but to continue being here and ot there (NZ!)

I would like to think that in the future the ground work FT has done will lead to the whole movement, wi be replaced by direct, euitable and fairly traded. I lso suspect Jules has it right in projectng a small, yet coffee focused market like New Zealand will/would be a great place to launch his idea in.

Ryan said:

all seems a little similar to the already-big 'fair trade certified' products in NZ? i notice at Wild Bean their raw sugar is also fair trade

[jules]

The thing is fair trad doas no reconise qulity like the cup of excellence system dose which has been knowen to push the price of green bean to over$100.00 US. (panama esmerelda 2007 mabye 8

Ryan said:

all seems a little similar to the already-big 'fair trade certified' products in NZ? i notice at Wild Bean their raw sugar is also fair trade