ASCAP fees...how do you deal with them?

[Sue Harnly]

Thanks in advance for any info on this item.....i own a small coffee shop, Eugene Coffee Company and have been hounded by ascap to pay the 300-$400 annual fee to play cd's in my shop. I have consulted my attorney and yes, i have to pay it if i am to comply. I have no problem with the thinking behind ascap and others like them and by all means want the royalties to go to the artists BUT i am guessing the artists get very little of the $ but that is beside the point.

My question, do any of you use a radio type program that is inexpensive, or free such as Pandora, Satellite??? Ideas? Thanks Ya'll!

Sue

[Mike Spence]

Hi Sue, First - I love Eugene - my wife's grandmother lives down there. . . There was a discussion a little while back that brought some of this up with some suggestions. I know that you still have to be careful with sites like Pandora because they have a commercial section that explains about using it in coffee shops etc. I believe that any radio is usually ok because it is not being re-broadcast etc.



Good luck and sorry you are running into this!

[Brady]

Hi Sue,

You'll need to invoke the "Sonny Bono clause". This allows you to use broadcast radio - FM and AM for sure, I believe satellite is ok as well, but am not positive. Last I knew, the web-based ones were involved in active litigation with the PRO's, so they are probably not your best choice.

We're lucky here to have a pretty good local indie FM station that doesn't do many commercials.

As a musician, I also agree with the idea of performance royalties. However I think the tactics employed by some reps do far more harm than good for small-time musicians.

Good luck.

[Bryan Wray]

You still have to pay for satellite radio...

There really is no way around it, and you can't just avoid it and hope it will go away. Unfortunately it's something that has to be paid.

Where I work we do live music every night and if anyone, ever, would do a cover of any song that is copyrighted it puts us into a whole different category. We realized that we were just going to have to pay them astronomical amounts of money. The most annoying part is that in order to pay ASCAP, BMI, etc we have to take money away from what was collected at the door, which otherwise goes 100% to the band... seems a little counter-productive to me, seeing how these bands will never, ever receive a royalty check. The owner of the shop used to play in a band that got fairly big, opened for some big bands at the time (I know they played with Our Lady Peace back when they were big news) and he said in 12 years of being on the road and touring he never saw a royalty check for any amount. Neither will the bands that come in and play a totally original set of only their own music, but yet we still have to take 10% of the door money for ASCAP. It's stupid.

-bry

[Joseph Robertson]

Sue, this is scary. I wonder if I'm going to get one of those visits. Do you think this list is being monitored by an ASCAP spy? Seriously though I play all kinds of cd's but try and focus on local artists who have cd's. "not very many in this small town"
Recently we hooked up cable tv etc. service so we can play all types of music if I can find the right cable to go from our receiver to the stereo. I think it would be a great solution for you.
Cheers, check out our little roastery cafe, www.jolindas.com
Joseph

[Joseph Robertson]

If you have access to cable tv you might be able to recover some costs by offering metered wifi. For now I just have an open Access point and give wifi free. That may change if we get busy.

[Jared Rutledge]

seems a little weird to try and charge you when you're not charging for the music, no? is it just the commercial nature of a business that makes you liable to pay? if you don't charge for a movie that you show in your shop, you don't have to pay royalties, i don't think. why should music be any different?

the fact that this is even an issue just further reminds me how insane the world is

[Joseph Robertson]

Jared,
Not to get off topic but I guess it's not that far off.
This is worth looking into about the movies. I do believe I heard somewhere that you can't show a Hollywood produced type of movie without special hoops to jump through. Very expensive as I recall.
Joseph

Jared Rutledge said:

seems a little weird to try and charge you when you're not charging for the music, no? is it just the commercial nature of a business that makes you liable to pay? if you don't charge for a movie that you show in your shop, you don't have to pay royalties, i don't think. why should music be any different?

the fact that this is even an issue just further reminds me how insane the world is

[Bryan Wray]

It seems to me that many people seem to be out of touch with just how tight of a stranglehold licensing and copyright agencies have on everything.

It does not matter how you receive the music: radio, satellite, cable TV or live music. If an artist gets played that has copyrighted material you owe ASCAP/BMI/whoever money. Paying for the service to deliver the music does not free you from paying for the fees. If they have a CD, they are copyrighted and therefore you owe the agency holding their copyright money. Doesn't matter if they are local or U2...

Jared, you are not allowed to show a movie unless it is an independent film and you have written permission from the people that made the movie, even if you don't charge. Unless you give away everything in your shop (drinks, eats) the movie is seen as the reason those people are in the shop, same with the music, and therefore, you are profiting off of it. Is it horse$#@*? Absolutely! But their lawyers are better than ours.

-bry

[Joseph Robertson]

Bry,
Thanks for clearing me up on this. You don't hear of very many prosecutions of the violators. Yet, that is. Sound like ASCAP is getting more aggressive.

Bryan Wray said:

It seems to me that many people seem to be out of touch with just how tight of a stranglehold licensing and copyright agencies have on everything.

It does not matter how you receive the music: radio, satellite, cable TV or live music. If an artist gets played that has copyrighted material you owe ASCAP/BMI/whoever money. Paying for the service to deliver the music does not free you from paying for the fees. If they have a CD, they are copyrighted and therefore you owe the agency holding their copyright money. Doesn't matter if they are local or U2...

Jared, you are not allowed to show a movie unless it is an independent film and you have written permission from the people that made the movie, even if you don't charge. Unless you give away everything in your shop (drinks, eats) the movie is seen as the reason those people are in the shop, same with the music, and therefore, you are profiting off of it. Is it horse$#@*? Absolutely! But their lawyers are better than ours.

-bry

[Jared Rutledge]

i dunno, the college i went to showed movies for free in the lecture halls on friday nights but charged for popcorn and stuff.

ASCAP is probably getting more aggressive because people aren't paying for music anymore. their funds are getting choked and they're getting more desperate

[Bryan Wray]

The college probably had the funds to pay ASCAP or received special permission.

-bry

Jared Rutledge said:

i dunno, the college i went to showed movies for free in the lecture halls on friday nights but charged for popcorn and stuff.

ASCAP is probably getting more aggressive because people aren't paying for music anymore. their funds are getting choked and they're getting more desperate

[Brady]

On the question of the legality of playing the radio, I grabbed this from ASCAP.com:

"8. I'm interested in playing music in my restaurant or other business. I know that I need permission for live performances. Do I need permission if I am using only CD's, records, tapes, radio or TV?

Yes, you will need permission to play records or tapes in your establishment. Permission for radio and television transmissions in your business is not needed if the performance is by means of public communication of TV or radio transmissions by eating, drinking, retail or certain other establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or TVs, and if the reception is not further transmitted (for example, from one room to another) from the place in which it is received, and there is no admission charge. Your local ASCAP licensing manager can discuss your needs and advise how ASCAP can help you. "